Formula SAE

"JDM.ITR" (jankorkmaz) 09/30/2014 at 10:18 • Filed to: Formula, SAE

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Recently joined my universities FSAE team and it's the first year they're doing it. I was wondering what'd be a better engine for us... Gallo 12 or a Gallo 24? I kid i kid. Restriction is 610cc and I was wondering what about a diesel engine? Never heard of them being that small though. Looking for more general info on engines that size since idk much about bikes and we're probably gonna go with a sport bike engine supposedly...

Leon711 > JDM.ITR 09/30/2014 at 10:20

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Piaggio does have a small diesel. used in the Ape.

DrJohannVegas > JDM.ITR 09/30/2014 at 10:26

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Nope, no diesels. Also, if you run the numbers on the speed profiles of these cars, they spend most of their time either accelerating or decelerating. Diesels aren't the best option anyway, and you'd get little of the efficiency gains.

My first suggestion for any new FSAE member is to read the rulebook. Carefully. Like any Formula series (or any design project), the rules give you hard constraints, so know them and then design from there.

Have fun!

Bavarianaddict > JDM.ITR 09/30/2014 at 10:26

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I go to The University of Akron, and I guess we are pretty good at the SAE racing stuff. I believe past year they used a Kawasaki 600cc motor

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > JDM.ITR 09/30/2014 at 10:30

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There are diesel engines that small, I think in a light weight car like that a gas engine would be better suited.

Unless you can win the race by making fewer fuel stops?

JDM.ITR > Bavarianaddict 09/30/2014 at 10:36

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I was just looking into maybe a different engine, probably will end up something like that kawasaki

jariten1781 > JDM.ITR 09/30/2014 at 10:43

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Get an old RE5 engine. Probably wouldn't be the fastest or the most efficient but it'd definitely be the most bad ass on the grid.

OutlawTorn > JDM.ITR 09/30/2014 at 10:45

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I am part of my university's team for the Formula Student (same rules, only held at Silverstone). Most cars with a conventional, non-exotic spaceframe chassis use 600cc fours (we use a CBR600RR motor). Only those with carbon fibre chassis use smaller twins or single-cylinder engines. Read the rules, diesel is not allowed. Only gasoline and E85

uofime > Bavarianaddict 09/30/2014 at 10:52

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false your team ran a single cylinder last year, a wr450 I believe

uofime > JDM.ITR 09/30/2014 at 11:01

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the first thing you should do is read the rule book.

I say that because diesel engines are not allowed.

the second thing you should do is research what other teams are doing, facebook, formula forums, past event results.

there is still a battle in FSAE between the singles and the I4's there hasn't been a clear victor yet.

the singles are a bitch to tune and underpowered unless you turbo them and then they're an even bigger bitch to tune. Many very good teams have gotten dnf's because they're engines wouldn't start and run at Michigan in the past couple years. They are however lighter and more fuel efficient. the WR450 is by far the most popular single

the I4's commonly used are the Honda f4i and the Yamaha r6 motors. their advantage is easy power, easier tuning you can run stock internals, they are cheap in the case of the F4i. they are however heavier, more difficult to package and thirsty.

gogmorgo - rowing gears in a Grand Cherokee > jariten1781 09/30/2014 at 12:13

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Doesn't meet rules. Anyone commenting who doesn't know the FSAE rule book is not helping.

Captain of the Enterprise > JDM.ITR 09/30/2014 at 12:17

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Generally teams go with a four cylinder engine but a lot of teams have been running mono engines recently. Often they pick an engine that comes packaged with a transmission and try to run off the shelf parts that way the engine and transmission have already been durability tested by someone and parts are more affordable and easier to find. I don't believe anyone has ever used a diesel engine and can't think of a company that makes a diesel that small of if that would pass rules. Your best bet is to go with a sportbike engine or some other engine that could package well. If your team has no idea I would suggest looking into what other teams are running for comparison or try to improve what the team ran the year before. Also I'm on a team and work for powertrain so I have experience so I could answer some questions. Also there is a dedicated forum for FSAE where you could ask some questions.

gogmorgo - rowing gears in a Grand Cherokee > JDM.ITR 09/30/2014 at 14:08

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As others have said before, the first thing you need to do is read the rule book. Then look at what other teams are doing. Should give you a good starting point.

Your goal for your first competition should be reliability and passing technical inspections. Don't be concerned with having the fastest and lightest car out there. Make sure your team works together.

As far as engines go, the more common ones used in FSAE are that way for a reason. See what other teams use, and pick one that works for you. You will need to retune it to run with a restrictor. My team runs a CBR600RR. We always kind of wondered what it would be like with the stock computer and tune, but it was too much work to put it back on just for giggles. We found out one year at competition. A first-year team did exactly that. They started the car for the first time ever to pass sound check (Don't be that team!!). They could barely keep it running at 11,000 rpm for the check. Then they moved over to the brake test, where they drove the car for the first time ever. It could barely move under its own power. You need to retune for that restrictor. This example also brings up something else that our team struggled with. You need to get as much testing in as possible. The months before competition should be used for testing (and breaking things.) Reliability is huge. Finishing the endurance test will give you a huge leg up over the teams that don't. An untested car won't be reliable.

Another thing to consider, FSAE is a bit odd among racing series in that it's primarily a design competition. A good team can do a good job designing and building a good car and still do well even if it's not the fastest car out there.

Rock Bottom > JDM.ITR 09/30/2014 at 15:18

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When I graduated (~7 years ago) the 600cc crotch-rocket engines ruled the world, but their days were numbered. Weight was starting to really dominate power and some teams were starting to get freaky fast with 450 thumpers and Italian V-twins. Someone (one of the Texan schools, I think) used a 4 cylinder CBR250 engine from Japan with a turbo and was pretty fast too, but that is an expensive way to go fast. Basically, the writing was on the wall: If you wanted to build a strong program, start learning thumpers and weight management. I'm not sure if that's still true, but that's what we were seeing.

Most importantly, don't get all fancy your first year out. Get the basics nailed down first and refine your designs each year. Evolution, not revolution. Get your suspension geometry math right, learn how to do driver safety (especially that impact attenuator), and run the most stone-simple engine package you can find. A thumper with a simple engine management system (like Performance Electronics) would be a smart place to start. Look at the teams that do well in Enduro and chat with them. Finally, build your car to finish the entire event, then start looking at places to lose weight and add power. Remember: to finish first, you must first finish! We learned important lessons in things like axle and differential strength/durability, frame stiffness between the suspension hard points, and engine heat management.

Enjoy the FSAE experience. It's the coolest thing you'll do in college! I learned more building those cars than I ever learned in a class room. In fact, when I interviewed for my first job out of college I answered more questions about my FSAE experience than about my school work!

tromoly > JDM.ITR 09/30/2014 at 21:20

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Diesel engines are against the rules.

Look at a single cylinder, Honda has a good one along with KTM. If you want a 4-cylinder, go with a Yamaha R6, IIRC it's dry-sump which is good.

bob and john > JDM.ITR 10/01/2014 at 12:14

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yea, most uni got with a 600cc sport bike motor.

my uni uses a honda CBR600 because honda is one of our main sponsors, and they are fairly reliable motors